Rick Steadman edit 2
[00:00:00] Welcome to Think Like an Improviser. I'm Jeremy Richards. In this podcast, we explore how the skills and insights of improvisation can elevate your creativity, success, and wellbeing. My guest for this episode is Rick Steadman. Rick is an award-winning Seattle-based actor, improviser improv. Audiobook narrator and voiceover artist.
He's appeared in several feature films, over a dozen national commercials and on criminal minds in Marvel's. Agent Carter. Yes, he is technically part of the freaking MCU. He's also the former education director at ComedySportz LA, where he was a member of the main company for.
Recently Rick took on the role of artistic director for ComedySportz Seattle. In this conversation, Rick shares how the practice of improvisation can help you demolish imposter syndrome, boost your confidence and show up more authentically in everything you do.
Jeremy: [00:01:00] And full disclosure, you and I have known each other since 1995, I guess
Rick: 95, 94. It's somewhere around there.
Rick: Yeah. It was
Jeremy: right around there. Yeah. Of which apparently is like 27, 28 years, which doesn't sound sound right.
Rick: No, it's, I don't That math was right. It's five years ago. Yeah.
The passage of time is an all.
Jeremy: I remember seeing you improvise for the first time back at Lewis and Clark High School's coffee house with Mike.
Jeremy: I still have this, our friend Mike Memory, vaguely in my mind of just being like, Who are those guys? What are they doing? This is not the type of improv that I've known in my low, these many months of doing improv
Rick: at that point. . Well, and and it was also, Who are these guys? Cuz we went to a different school.
Rick: Oh, that was the other part of it. . Yeah. Yeah. It was like, why are these guys at our coffee house? No, it was great. It was because I was friends with Angie. Oh yeah. All
Jeremy: connected. Yeah. And at that point, had you been improvising for a [00:02:00] while in high school?
Rick: That was our, let's see, that was, I think that was your junior year, my sophomore year, I wanna say.
Rick: Mm-hmm. . So a few years. I think I did like some improv in junior high. I really started doing it more regularly in high school. Two of my friends in the high school drama department were like, We should have an improv group here at our school.
Rick: Wanted to start one with us and I was like, Yeah. And we started this group that we ended up naming Thesperados Oh. In
Jeremy: be, That's ringing a bell.
Rick: Yeah. Yeah. It's honestly a better name than we deserved. It's a pretty good name. It's a good day. Yeah. And that group, as far as I know, is actually still going at that high school, which is crazy.
Rick: Under the same day. Under the same name, like last I heard they were still going. But yeah, so I started regularly doing improv, I think my freshman year of high school, which would've been the year before you and I met.
Jeremy: Right. And then we went on [00:03:00] to form the the Sketch comedy Group of Legends, The Fresh Makers, which I also think is still a good name.
Rick: You know? I think so too. I mean, like if we we, we probably risked. Being sued for trademark infringement,
Jeremy: It was a good, That would've, that would've been the best sand effect ever in terms of like blowing up the, the notability of this, this high school sketch troupe in Spokane. Yeah. Ensued by a multinational conglomerate candy company.
Jeremy: That would've been amazing. .
Mintos, the fresh maker.
Rick: It would've been great, but I, I, like we started doing that. I hadn't done any or hardly any writing sketch. At that same coffee house that you saw, Mike and me, we saw the sketches that you'd written and dragged some of your friends to, to like be in, and we were blown away by these sketches.
Rick: We were sort of like, Eh, some of these guys don't really know how to act and they're clearly just sort of reading lines, but like, [00:04:00] this is really funny. So mutual admiration, right?
Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Was there a point for you then that since this, podcast is ostensibly about applied improv, was there a point early on where you realized, oh, this stuff actually is affecting my life beyond the theater?
Rick: I think for most high school kids who get into improv, the first kind of effect that they get is the, the sort of social effect of like improv tends to attract as, as kind of ongoing practitioners. It tends to attract people who don't feel like they fit a lot of other places. There's a lot of sort of misfits and kind of odd ducks in improv.
Rick: And I. Expound on the reasons that I think that is, but I think you know, that was probably the first application was like, Oh, I'm making all of these friends who I think are really [00:05:00] cool and really funny. And like the sort of secondary, a application that came out of that too is like sitting around, like doing bits, making your friends laugh.
Rick: There's a lot of the, the kind of. Rhythms of comedy and structures of comedy that you're learning and and you're using to make your friends laugh. So I'd say those were the first kind of applications that I noticed. Yeah, I definitely didn't think of them that way either.
Jeremy: No. Maybe not making those connections right away, but coming to some sort of new level of confidence and expression.
Jeremy: Overall, and e even for me, you know, in that period of time of coming into our own in high school, and for me, feeling in a victim mindset, you know, growing up in poverty and still being freshly out of the halfway house. I think at that point when I met you was like, I'm just kind of [00:06:00] going along with the stream and then in improv there.
Jeremy: Idea of like, Oh yeah, you can create your own scenes, you can initiate your own things. You can decide, Oh, we're gonna go to Perkins tonight, or we're gonna go to see . You know, just small initiations with groups of friends where, where I was the one making suggestions had this, not to be too pretentious about it, but who are you talking to?
Jeremy: This almost existential, you know?
Rick: Yeah, no, I mean, like even for me, You get to have a kind of agency that you've never had before. Like in the world, you, you know, when you're, when you're doing improv, you are literally creating your own reality with other people, you know?
Rick: Yeah, I think that that kind of stuff has pretty big impact on a, on a kid
Rick: And I mean, I think it explains part of why we keep doing it.
Jeremy: Yeah. A lot of people get into improv [00:07:00] later in life as professionals, mid-career, which is fantastic. Mm-hmm. . And at the same time, there's something special about discovering it in high school. And I still see that today with some of the high school teams that are theater supports.
Jeremy: I'm sure you've seen it. Oh yeah. I,
Rick: I, I work with the number of high schools down here in in Southern California with their, their improv teams. Mostly through Comedy Sportz LA, which has the nation's, maybe the world's biggest high school improv program. Wow. Yeah, it's like 70 some schools.
Rick: It's wild. But there's kids there that are doing it just cuz it's like a fun thing to do. And then there are kids there that have drunk the Kool-Aid and are just like, improv for me forever. Give it to me forever. Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah. And we can relate, we can see glimmers of ourselves at that age or at this age.
Jeremy: Yeah. . Yeah. Yeah, [00:08:00] yeah. And there's this formative period, obviously of adolescence, of trying to figure out where you belong, like you said, and then this notion of imposter syndrome to wedge that topic in, but does that notion of imposter syndrome resonate with you
Jeremy: at all. ? Yeah. Yes, that's
Rick: a yes. no. I, I don't know if you remember we had a conversation over the phone
Rick: probably eight or nine years ago. Where I was talking, cuz you know, you're one of my oldest and closest friends, like we've talked about a lot of stuff over the years, but I was talking about this feeling that I'd had, you know, for as long as I could remember and you said, Yeah, imposter syndrome. And I remember I burst out crying and said it has a name.
TV clips: Sounds like you just have imposter syndrome.
TV clips: It all makes sense
Rick: because it was that experience of like this kind of deep, dark, ugly [00:09:00] pain that I had been carrying around and, you know, rarely verbalizing any, any kind of way. And then to like, to let it out into the sunlight and then be told like, Oh yeah, not only is that a thing that other people experience, like there's a name for it.
Rick: So yeah, I, it deeply resonates with me. It's something that I'd say I still.. Struggle with is the wrong word, but like, deal with, manage work with, It's still something that is a part of my life. Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah. You know it's apparently, according to the research, 70%. All adults, , at least those are who are honest, have struggled with some sort of imposter syndrome at some point, if not more.
Jeremy: Do you feel that there is an outlet or something about improv that can help us approach this idea of feeling like a fraud or feeling like we don't belong?
Rick: Yes, there's a number of things and I'm gonna try to kind of remember the different thoughts that I've got about this. But [00:10:00] the first is when you're, when you're reckoning with imposter syndrome you are, By necessity, like deep in your ego, right?
Rick: Like you're deep in yourself. And I'm not saying that in a judgmental way. I'm not saying that like, ooh, egotistical,
White Lotus: Get over yourself. Get over myself.
Rick: just like you are in yourself and you're very self conscious, self-aware, right? When you are, when you are dealing with this, and one of the things that I think improv at its best calls us to do is get out of ourselves a bit and connect.
Rick: Right. When I am focused on the, the other person or people that I am performing with, when I'm really focused on what they are doing and on listening to them and being affected by them and trying to communicate with them,
Titanic: You see people? I see you.
Rick: when all of that is happening, there's not [00:11:00] space for me. Well, there's not space for me, Right?
Rick: There's not space for me to be focused on. Myself, I've got too many other things that I'm dealing with. I'm dealing with the reality that we're creating. I'm dealing with the emotions, the character, the, the relationship I'm dealing with, all of that stuff and the story that we're progressing and there just isn't space.
Rick: There's a thing, I learned this from my mom actually. There's a thing when you. When you're performing, when you, you get this a lot when you're teaching as well. And it's called sublimation like there isn't space for you to be conscious of yourself because you're too focused on this other stuff.
Rick: And when she told me that, I was like, Ah, that makes really good sense, cuz the root word is sublime and you've had it a million times, I'm sure. Like you finish a show or you finish, you know, something where you're really focused and you know, two hours have passed and you didn't even notice, Right?
Rick: It's just like, ah, and you just feel [00:12:00] good. What is the Thomas Aquinas like, relieved me of the bondage of self? Like it, it allows for that, right? Yeah. So that's a really pretentious answer, but it's, I think, true. No, it's right at my alley. I think it's, I think it's true. I think, No, go ahead.
Rick: Go ahead.
Jeremy: Yeah. No, I, I think either Nietzche uses the term directly or indirectly, and then Walter Kaufman writes about it with the term sublimation, but about channeling energies that could otherwise, mm-hmm. destroy us or overtake us or overwhelm us into something positive and creative. Yeah. In that, Right.
Rick: One of the things that I have dealt with a lot over my lifetime has been depression. I deal with depression. I, I know I'm not unusual in that either. There's a lot of people out there and I've found over the years that If I can say yes to going and like doing an improv show it can really, really help me.
Rick: I don't necessarily feel lifted up after that. You know, I [00:13:00] may still be in the depression, but I got an hour or two of relief. Right. Like, I don't have to just be in it because depression is very inward facing as well. Yeah. So there's, there's a lot of that stuff I think. To improv. And I don't, I think in that respect, it's not specific necessarily to improv.
Rick: You know, I've had that experience acting or like I say, teaching I'm sure you know like I think there's some of that aspect of like being in the zone that athletes experience. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That, that I don't because I'm not an
Jeremy: athlete. But you do experience flow. It's just not the athletic side.
Rick: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's, it is that, it is that being fully present. Second circle is another way that like some improv people like to
Jeremy: talk about it, like Patsy Rodenburg type of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I really love that. Something. Yeah. Can you speak a little bit about Second Circle for those who aren't familiar with it?
Rick: [00:14:00] I'll probably do a terrible job Synopsizing, but, it's a way of talking about kind of three sort of states of being. First circle is that very kind of, it's inward and it's of the past. Right. They'll say like, depression is inward facing and it tends to be of the past.
Rick: Depression is like, of the past anxiety is of, of the future, right? Like it's what might happen and depression is like what has happened. But like first circle is inward and and it can be like any of these states of being can be good or beneficial, but like it.
Rick: That place of being sort of inward and of the past. Third circle would be much more kind of broad and like external and, and of the future. And like, you know, a very third circle performer is, you know, gonna be coming in like a, you know, like a pirate, like a, like a boulder, running through the stage.
Rick: And second circle is that [00:15:00] place of being in the present. Being in the now hearing and seeing what is happening and expressing but not being inward, not being outward, just kind of being the balanced know I'm doing. Yeah, Balanced energy, that's a, Yeah. There's.
Rick: Benefit to any of those states of being and like we're also, we're humans and we're going to experience them, but as a performer, certainly that second circle, I think is the most utile. You can be a little third circle or a little first circle if necessary. But if you're in that, if you keep bringing yourself back to that place of second circle, you're seeing the whole field,
I can see everything.
Jeremy: right? So in short, the second circle is the golden mean between being totally [00:16:00] drawn into yourself and disappearing into the wallpaper, or being totally in someone else's face. And way too extra . Yes. But you're able to step back in between those extremes to connect with people where they're at.
Jeremy: Your steam partner look good. That
Rick: was about 20 seconds to say what I think just took me like four or five
Jeremy: minutes. But yes, that's, It's all helpful. It's all helpful. It's interesting about improv in particular though because I think some of these elements of getting into flow and getting us out of our heads is common to a lot of different practices as the research shows.
Jeremy: I think it's insightful as well as you bring up the idea of being egocentric, because I talk about that as well, that not in the judgmental Freudian sense of like you're being egocentric, but that you're focused on yourself. Yeah. And there's this John Hopkins university research, I dunno if you've seen it, where they're looking at.
Jeremy: Jazz musicians and [00:17:00] rappers in terms of scripted versus improvised art.
Rick: Oh, Uhhuh. .
Jeremy: And you would think that there would be a universal experience of the music, and it's hard to say what's going on specific to improvising versus just following along. With a script or with written music. But what they found was in these fmri machines getting, that's not the most natural environment, and I don't know how they get their, you know, instruments inside there, , but somehow they were able to get these musicians in a brain scan and look at the moment between when they were following the written music and when they said, Okay, now improvise.
Jeremy: and gave 'em a little time to, to get into that flow. And what they noticed was that the parts of the brain responsible for the inner critic totally dampened down, even compared to when playing music that's, that's pre-written. You know, that the improv brain is different. [00:18:00] Right,
Rick: yeah, I've heard this and I've, I've heard it in discussion of like freestyle rap and I mean, it makes good sense, right? Because if you've ever tried to do anything kind of challenging, In terms of improv, if it is like, you know, if you're like trying to freestyle rap, for instance, which is
Jeremy: Yeah. I'm terrible at it. , ,
Rick: I'm, I'm getting better is I stopped telling myself that I'm terrible
Jeremy: at it. Yeah. Maybe that's my imposter syndrome about rap. Like yeah, it could be.
Rick: Could be. Yeah. But you know, if you were thinking about like trying to do it. You're screwed or to look good or Yeah.
Rick: Or to look. Oh God. Yeah. That's another of the the things that I think like improv teaches that can help you with imposter syndrome and it, it helps you with like being in the moment, being in second circle, is most improv you are doing with other people, Right?
Rick: And if you can put your focus [00:19:00] on, you know, one of the things that we love to teach and like beginning improv classes is make each other look good, right?
Rick: Yeah. If you can make your partner look. And they try to make you look good. You'll both come out looking awesome, right? , if you are trying to make yourself look good, the audience can tell. And also you're probably missing what your partner is doing.
Jeremy: Yeah. That's why I love the term allocentric. I don't hear it enough, and it sounds like a wonky term, but it's the opposite of egocentric, you know?
Jeremy: I like that. So, yeah. You know, just, it, it helps me because there's not an easy synonym for that. There's the nym of egocentric that we hear all the time, but yeah. Be more allocentric. Right. Focus on on other people for a change. And out of your head we're literally being unselfconscious when we improvise.
Rick: Yeah. And this, this kind of stuff, it's also, I mean, it's a major aspect of being of service to others so that you can get out of yourself and do some things that you can feel good about. It's a major aspect of [00:20:00] world religions Western, Eastern, like, you find it all over.
Rick: It's, it's a major aspect of like meditation and prayer, like all of these things, and I'm an agnostic saying that, but like there's, yeah, it's this through line that seems to be running through a. Different kind of paths to wisdom and actualization.
Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. Loving kindness. Meditation.
Jeremy: Especially. There's some interesting research though that shows that too much of mindfulness meditation that's inwardly focused, which is good to an extent, but you can overdo it right to a point where, You absolve yourself of your own guilt that this one study showed very recent study actually where people felt less, less, less guilty after doing too much mindfulness meditation.
Jeremy: So they didn't have the impetus to like actually act. And, and make amends with people, right? She's like, No, I'm all good. I just totally neutralized , like,
The Midnight Gospel: I'm enlightened now.
Jeremy: the anecdote to that was doing loving kindness meditation, which is again, outwardly focused, other focused.
Jeremy: May you be, well, may you be happy, [00:21:00] may you find peace. Yeah. You know, when we think about others. So it's not to say that mindfulness meditation is bad, or that loving kindness is the only way to do it, but it really opened my eyes to be like a. Meditation is not perfect, and it has this dirty underside and a shadow to it, and we can finally feel smug about all those people who are better meditators than us.
Rick: And the, and the cure for this dirty underside of meditation is different. Meditation, ,
Jeremy: It's always something that we're not doing quite.
Rick: Yeah, man. I was trying to think of other, You know, kind of direct applications that, has to dealing with things like imposter syndrome. Mm. And I think one of them is a kind of showmanship well, the sun just came out from behind
Jeremy: a cloud. It's really dramatic lighting on this side. Yeah.
Rick: Cool. Great.
Rick: Awesome. Good. So , so I've taught, I've [00:22:00] taught how to play these games, and one of the big things that I teach is sell your joke to the audience, right? If you've got if you've got a joke, it could be, it could be the best joke ever, but if you sort of tell it like it's a stinky joke grenade and you sort of like, and you say the punchline and run back into the safety of where the other players.
Rick: The audience. Doesn't matter how good the joke is, the audience isn't going to laugh because they are worried about you. Mm. Right? Like and you don't want an audience going, Oh honey, are you okay? Like, that's not right. That's the opposite of of laughter. But if you, Sort of if you go up and you plant your feet and you loudly and proudly tell your joke, and even if it's not a joke, you will get a laugh if you stand there and just wait.
Rick: If you just hold your ground and wait, you can tell a joke that is literally just not, it's not funny. It's not a joke. There's [00:23:00] no joke to it.
The Parent Trap: Not funny. That's not funny.
Rick: But if you hold your ground and you wait that audience, Laugh, it may take four or five seconds, but they will. Yeah. Because they know that they can just kind of trust this moment.
Rick: And there's something innately funny about a person just standing there and proudly telling them nonsense, you know? Mm-hmm. . So there's this kind of aspect of showmanship and there's a lot of, like, there's, there's a lot of other kind of kernels to it, but
Rick: There is something to training yourself to, to, to be in a place. Right. And if you're acting confident you know, for the, for the course of a show I'm not saying that you will then like move confidently through your life, but you've got more experience of being in a place of.
Rick: Trusting yourself. Mm-hmm. , even if you, even if you like on the inside, don't on the outside, if you're projecting that you do right. There is something to that. Right. Or
Jeremy: stepping into the role [00:24:00] of a version of you that's not fake, but is making that leap of faith in your own capability. Yeah.
Rick: Even if in your mind you're like, This is terrible, this is pointless, and everyone is going to, is going to rush the stage and stab me . If you
Jeremy: just, Which only happened a few times. Only a
Rick: couple. Yeah.
Jeremy: Like, yeah. I mean, we've all, all got a few stab wounds from our improv days.
Rick: So, yeah, I used to have a class that I would teach and I would, in the middle of this kind of larger exercise, I'd just go, Okay, you know, you're walking around the room, keep walking around the room.
Rick: Don't worry about anybody else around you. You're just, you're doing your own thing right now. Mm-hmm. And I've taken them through a number of other kind of acting exercises as they're doing this. And then I say, Okay, now you are the sexiest person in the world. Yeah. You are the, you know, like, and they're just playing a character, right?
Rick: Yeah. So they get to just kind of, and [00:25:00] I go, Okay, great. Now we're going to do sexy entrances. We've got this door. So like We're all going to wait here and you're going to do a sexy entrance, and we're all going to sw and applaud and be really like, Wow. And here's the thing, it's like people will do it and they're kind of playing the game and they're sort of, you know, they're, they're sort of doing it jokingly.
Rick: Yeah. But there is, there's a, a power to just allowing yourself to be this thing that you don't think of yourself as.
Jeremy: Yeah. It goes back to that thing in improv from high school where you can write your own reality and that's a new revelation. Right? Right.
Rick: And, and, and I watched students like allow themselves to think of themselves as sexy.
Rick: Some of 'em, I think probably for the first time in their lives, and like it, it was cool because they just like felt good for the rest of the
Jeremy: Class, you know? Yeah. And that might be more authentic. Who they've [00:26:00] been pretending to be all along. So this idea of the, of faking it, it's like how do you know that the real fraud wasn't the person that, you know, you were mean, be all along.
Jeremy: You know, it could have like what, what this idea of fraudulence means, like this morality in term of imposter that I'm fake, you know, faking people out that I'm doing something. Yeah. Unethical. When I work at the coaching client or something and unravel that, it takes time, but you get to the root of like, Well, who do you think you're supposed to be with other people?
Jeremy: What's this idea of your true self, your ideal self, right? Where did that come from? And what assumptions are you making? And eventually there's this like aha moment of like, Oh yeah, I'm always in a persona of some sort. Authenticity is not a fixed. Right. And I,
Rick: I remember like when, when we were kids, I don't know if this is still happening, but when we were kids, just a million different things that the message was be yourself.
Rick: Be yourself. Right? And [00:27:00] I remember even as a kid going like, I don't know what that means, , I don't. Like, what does that mean? Yeah, it's that it's that moment in, in I Heart Huckabees is that great existentialist comedy where the guy just keeps repeating to himself over and over, How am
Rick: I not myself? How am I not myself?
I Heart Huckabees: Am I not myself? How am I not myself?
I Heart Huckabees: How am I not myself?
Rick: And he spins out so hard that he ends up like throwing up in front of people, in a boardroom because he's, Yeah, it is a question that is worth dealing with, but like be yourself is very confusing,
Jeremy: right? And if we're not so tightly wound around that idea of be your authentic self at all times and you're the only one who hasn't figured it out, then you can loosen up a little bit and be an improviser, whether you're on stage or off.
Jeremy: And you're, you're freaking quantum leaping into different characters [00:28:00] constantly as an improviser. So it sort of loosens up to your psyche and your notion of like, to begin
Rick: with, because we, we move through the world with a narrative about ourselves, right? Like all of us do, we have this story about ourselves and, and it may change given the context, right?
Rick: Like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm telling myself a different story about. while I'm talking with you than I am on a first date and I'm nervous, right. Or whatever. Mm-hmm. This isn't a date. I mean, it broke my heart, man. Are you buying dinner? Cuz now I'm excited. .
Jeremy: You should get a knock on your door from Uber Eats at any moment.
Jeremy: Great. I want
Rick: the steak if you're by. Yeah. But,
Jeremy: Sorry. You're, you're acting differently. No, no, no. You're depending on the
Rick: context. Yeah. You've gotta, you've got a narrative that, that you're, that, you know, we're not conscious of most of the time, but we have a narrative. Improv is requiring you to just change that narrative over and over and over and Yeah, it's a narrative that you're telling about characters that you're playing, but like, that [00:29:00] line gets very fuzzy if you're in the moment.
Jeremy: Yeah. It's coming from somewhere. And is the call is from inside the house. . Yeah. So, yeah. And yeah, speaking of telling absurd, meaningless jokes with confidence, can I share a joke with you that my seven year old just told me this morning? Oh my God, Yes, please. When we were driving and she was in the back in her booster seat and said, What did one tree say to the other?
Jeremy: What? Stop it. You're messing up my hair. And then she said, But trees don't have hair. They must have been talking about leaves
Jeremy: That was the part of the joke that that really sold it for me was that like, Oh my God. As if she were just reporting an observation that she made, just like, Wait a second. That doesn't make sense.
Rick: It was really weird that those trees said that to each other. . .
Jeremy: That is amazing. Natural improviser. Yeah. Oh, thanks Man, really are
Jeremy: This has been awesome. Is there anything I sh I should have asked you?
Rick: I mean, [00:30:00] what I wanted for dinner, I guess. Yeah, no I don't, I don't know. It's, you know, it's your, it's your nickel, so if, if nothing occurs to you I got nothing. And, and
Jeremy: where can people find you online?
Rick: They can find me at ricksteadman.com.
Rick: Nice. Yeah,
Jeremy: I have jeremy richards.com. I think that's one of the advantages of our generation is capturing our names
Rick: Yeah. The Instagram is Rick's stead person. You know, say it, it's, it's fine. , right? They don't need to find me
Rick: I'll find them. I'm coming to your home, .
Jeremy: Good. All right. Exciting. Always pleasure to see you, man. you Likewise,
Jeremy: You can find more information about Rick Steadman and his work at ricksteadman.com. I also featured Rick's story in my new book, the Accomplished Creative Overcome Imposter Syndrome, Forge Courage, and Tap Into Limitless Creativity. Now Available on Kindle in paperback. And as an audiobook on [00:31:00] audible.com.
Jeremy: For more information about the book, this podcast, or to connect with me, visit jeremyrichards.com.
The Family Guy: Mintos, the fresh maker.